Improving PvP: Weight and PvP Diversity

So I hear people complain about diversity a lot in Dark Souls. In a sense, I don’t think the situation is too bad, but it could use a lot of improving. Still, many people look at several ‘over powered’ options that are commonly used and suggest that removing one would improve the game. I think this is missing the point.

Dark Souls PvP lacks diversity because, mechanically, Dark Souls PvP lacks diversity.

Okay, that’s not satisfying, but the point is, the diversity isn’t there to be unlocked, because Dark Souls is loaded false choices and relatively meaningless options.

Lets start with rolls. There are 3 weight classes in Dark Souls. Under 25% equip load, under 50% and over 50%. The Dark Woodgrain Ring ( one of the several items people want to see disappear) gives a roll slightly better roll than 25% equip rate and the same walk speed at 50% equip, but for all intents and purposes it’s the 25% equip rate ‘class’ of movement’.

And it is only that class that is viable n any way. If you are slower than your opponent, you can’t do too much to avoid a backstab. Even a defensive roll can often end up with you getting backstabbed. The faster player can also kite you indefinitely. To be viable you HAVE to be in the fastest possible weight class. It’s suicide otherwise.

What of Armor? Armor has 3 factors. Stamina Penalty, Defense and Poise. Well, and weight, but generally you’re picking the armor for the weapons.Stamina penalty is almost ignorable, defense is weak on most things and poise is the most meaingful stat, which helps you not get staggered by hits. Playing with 0 poise is a doable, though not very recommended thing though. so generally you get a certanin amount of poise (usually 55 for those wondering) and try and get as much defense as possible while looking cool and staying under weight. It’s mosty meaningless though. Poise does matter, but not to a great deal. Even if Light Armor was ‘viable’ all it would do is change how people look for the most part. No interesting choices are being made because armor isn’t particlarly interesting.

As already established, most magic is also not viable in PvP.

For rings, we have a few usable options. Wolf Ring (give spoise), Hornet Ring (increased damage on parries/backstabs), Dark Woodgrain ring (see above), Havels (doubles equip load. Only worth using in conjunction with DWGR for super weight bonuses) and the Ring of Favor and Protection (which boosts health, stamina and equip burden but breaks if removed). There are a few other rings that are somewhat usable, but generally these are the best and most run DWGR and the Ring of Favor and Protection.

The issue here is not that these rings are ‘too good’. It’s that most other rings are “30% Fire resist”. The DWGR and the RoFaP are possibly too good, but in general, the problem is that most rings are just damn boring.

That leaves weapons, which has a lot of samey choices, but is still relatively good.

As such the only real choices you have are ‘what weapon do I use’ and a few supplmentals. “Do I use buffs and/or scaling weapons”. As the game is now, it’s good that you can wear a lot of armor and carry a bunch of weapons, because mixing and matching weapons/shields is possibly the only way you can really make your character have any sort of flavor.

So how do we fix this? The sad answer is, we don’t. Not in Dark Souls at least. Maybe they’ll somehow patch the game with some carefully made decisions that will turn things on their head, but that’s not the type of stuff I can theorize about. So what can a sequel to Dark Souls do? This is tricky because the changes will also exist in PvE too.

Okay one of the big problem is that attacking is inherently risky and defense is really strong. It can be quite tricky to do real damage to an overly defensive player and your aggression opens you up to the ever dreaded backstab (or even getting parried!). Part of this is it’s hard to catch up with a retreating opponent who has his shield up and tag him with a slow weapon. If you can’t keep that aggression up, they can put down their shield and recover their stamina fairly quickly. So lets start with a few things. Backpedeling should be slower than normal movement and moving while blocking should also be slower. I also constantly think that Dark Souls needs a way to punish people who block to much directly. Some sort of guard break. Sadly the Kick doesn’t function in this role quite well enough. The guard break should be slower, but far more effective. Perhaps a benefit for certain weapons or heavy shields (better shield bashes would be sweet)? Perhaps in exchange for even slower movement while in use. Conversely a dagger might not have a shield break, but it’s low stamina drain and speed of attack allows it to put on pressure and chisel down an opponent, while also letting it punish roll attempts. Less damage resistance amongst smaller shields could also work. Limiting 100% resist to great shields so chip damage could play a better role.

Then there are weight classes. I think that all weight classes should physically move at the same speed. This might not be required if other abilities were in place (like say, being able to have a charge attack or something to close distance). Turn speed should definitely be the same for everyone and the medium roll should be better (It should be of AVERAGE utility, not awful). Hopefully with this, they wouldn’t get backstabbed all the time. Also linking armor type to the various rolls would probably help. Like, if Heavy Armor could NEVER do a 25% roll or something. As part of the tradeoff.

So now heavy and light armor need to be viable. RIght now heavy armor doesn’t defend THAT much better than light armor and it’s mostly the poise. First, having armor that DOES stuff is awesome. Be it light armor that increases critical damage, or ability to use magic or whatever. This might make playing dress up harder, but could be fixed by making it an element of a Demon’s Souls style upgrade tree, allowing all armor in a class to have various abilities (maybe even the charge, or other types of buffs). Stamina penalty if necessary could also be higher to offset the improved defense while also maintaining PvE balance.

Spells are their own thing, but making them usable would do a lot to help the game..

So basically, while I put out some suggestions, the whole idea goes like this

*First, the weight classes have to matter.
*Then the armor has to matter (and no, poise isn’t enough)
*Then aggression in combat has to matter.

Once you get those 3 things, you can start adding in all sorts of other elements (like better magic and rings) and then get a game with some actual diversity going on. Basically what you need are meaningful choices to make betwen different ideals. Dark Souls lacks this. There is one viable weighclass — not because it’s the best, but because the slower weight classes lose to it cleanly. There is no armor variety because armor has very few properties to meaningfully distinguish pieces. Weapons DON’T have this problem because there is something to be said about fast weapons compared to slow ones. One is not clearly superior. In fact, the Lighting Zweihander people complain about is not nearly the ‘best weapon’. It’s slow attacks leave it extremely unsafe, but it only has to hit you once or twice. A fun and interesting tradeoff! So if we do that for armor and make attacking a little safer, we know have a ton of new design space and everyone wins!

4 thoughts on “Improving PvP: Weight and PvP Diversity

  1. When I have something to show or talk about, which might be awhile off. I might do Trevor’s character sheet eventually but I’m not sure what other news I can do after that. Maybe one with some of the music? We’ll see.

  2. I’m interested Kayin, did you play much of demon’s souls pvp? IMO is was strictly superior and I think there’s a couple of really obvious reasons why.
    First, poise is just a bad mechanic. It’s not transparent, ie; the player hitting you doesn’t know exactly how much poise you have, will it take 2 or 3 hits to stun? It encourages a tank n spank style of gameplay which to me is really dull. It also improves backstabbing, which really didn’t need to be improved.
    Secondly, most movesets seem really dull when compared to demon’s souls. I suspect as a result of adding the poise mechanic, the designers thought more weapons needed to be able to chain hits together, to really punish you for not having poise. For some reason they made almost all weapons chain. Why? Why can I chain someone with an ultra-greatsword? In demon’s, instead of chaining, greatswords gave you knockdown on some hits and hyper-armour if you were 2-handing. As a great example of how to do chaining properly I would point to the straight swords in demon’s souls. Their regular attacks would chain, but only if you got right up into your opponents face, obviously this provides a bit of a risk/reward trade off as your opponent could just attack at any range to keep you from getting in close. Additionally the straight sword’s alternate attacks provided extra range and damage, but were a bit slower. I think that was a great moveset as it packed so much utility into 2 buttons.
    I have many complaints about dark souls, but those are just off the top of my head. I mostly agree about the armour stuff, but I think the woodgrain ring is partly to blame, the roll animation it gives you actually gives you loads more i-frames and moves you faster, and the ring essentially doubles your equip burden, it seems very OP. If we were limited to the regular rolls, I think you’d find the second-tier roll (<50%) is actually quite viable, you just have to be much more careful.

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