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Author Topic: Boshy Level Design  (Read 9476 times)

TheDarkImperialHD

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Boshy Level Design
« on: February 04, 2014, 06:04:44 pm »

I just don't understand why some People don't like Boshy,sure everyone has his own taste.
I read on some Topics that Solgryn's Level Design is awful in Boshy,hmm i like it very much. For me its good Level Design or maybe i don't know what Good Level Design is ?
Explain pls ...

Valkema

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2014, 06:11:19 pm »

I respond to your question with another, what did you enjoy about the design of the rooms and the area's as a whole in Boshy?
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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2014, 06:17:01 pm »

I feel like Boshy's level design had good ideas which just weren't executed very well
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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2014, 06:20:56 pm »

The mario part is unacceptably hard. It seriously isn't even fun. I don't even get mad anymore. I felt every single emotion humanly possible, and now the game's just dead to me
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TheDarkImperialHD

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 06:32:27 pm »

I respond to your question with another, what did you enjoy about the design of the rooms and the area's as a whole in Boshy?

I Like this that if you start in Boshy World 1. The Game instantly throw a mess of things at you. Also this Spider is what i like. I mean to scare the player,if it isn't too loud than it's okay. I just laugh my ass off after my heart attack as i meat the Spider first Time and later. I like Boshy cuz there are almost no standard spike Jumps.This every Pixel Movement is Awesome in my Opinion. Every Screen has his Gimmicks. Okay than i also read that this Spike Area in World 8 sux. I enjoyed this Screen cuz after playing Boshy for hours you see a Room with many many Spikes and you just think WTF. For me it was a Awesome Screen. Not like some Fangames that instantly start with many Spikes. I think the Point of I Wanna Be The Guy or Fangames ... is "you play my Game? fuck you with good Ideas"
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 06:35:33 pm by TheDarkImperialHD »
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Valkema

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 07:32:39 pm »

I Like this that if you start in Boshy World 1. The Game instantly throw a mess of things at you. Also this Spider is what i like. I mean to scare the player,if it isn't too loud than it's okay. I just laugh my ass off after my heart attack as i meat the Spider first Time and later. I like Boshy cuz there are almost no standard spike Jumps.This every Pixel Movement is Awesome in my Opinion. Every Screen has his Gimmicks. Okay than i also read that this Spike Area in World 8 sux. I enjoyed this Screen cuz after playing Boshy for hours you see a Room with many many Spikes and you just think WTF. For me it was a Awesome Screen. Not like some Fangames that instantly start with many Spikes. I think the Point of I Wanna Be The Guy or Fangames ... is "you play my Game? fuck you with good Ideas"
Alright I will start off by saying this. What is considered to be good level design and bad level design is mostly defined by "what will cause the average Joe to enjoy said design and continue with the game." The main issue with Boshy as a whole is it designed for people who love heavily trial and error games and if you look at a game where the number 1 requirement is to cause trial and error it does it's job perfectly well. However if you take it out of that audience and give it to an average Joe than it will be disliked by most and that is why people will say it's badly designed. The thing is, most people don't like heavy trial and error. It causes(what I like to call) casual game syndrome where you suddenly forget you are playing a game and your fingers are just moving through muscle memory.

What usually makes for a fun game(non pvp games) is when you are given a situation that you can't just force your way through and only when you truly understand the challenge the developer has set out for you can you do it. The problem with boshy is you can understand how you are supposed to do it, you just can't put the inputs in just right. There is a healthy amount of tolerance that needs to be put in place, too much makes a game to easy and too little makes a game too hard. Keep in mind we are referring to the average Joe player.

To start off, what Boshy mainly does that is wrong is you don't have a learning curve. The next room could be the same difficulty as the last, maybe harder, maybe easier and to varying degrees. Boshy may have a variety of spike jumps but a game that is designed well will teach you how to spike jump and then use what you have learned in a non tedious way to let you do a harder jump. Boshy doesn't do this, it gives you a random pattern of spikes and says to jump through it. The main problem with Boshy is it doesn't teach the player how to play. I don't mean through tutorials I mean through the design of the rooms and the learning curve.

I'll use cave story as an example. In the first cave of cave story they start you out with no weapons and no way of fighting. The first thing you see on you right is a closed path that you can't progress through. On your left you see a red spiky thing. The spikes are colored differently for you to recognize them as bad however if you don't you will kindly meet your demise and go back 3 seconds. Now you know never to touch them again. Next you are greeted with simple enemy patterns, if you get hit it's only a bit of damage so you know this is a bad thing. The health up is really bright and flashy so it sticks out as important so you go examine it. After you dodge bats a bit you get to a wall that you thought you could jump up but because your in water you can't, the game teaches you that water reduces your jump height. So you go back and you jump from outside the water and you make it to the first weapon. It is in a chest that is bright so it sticks out. You reenter first cave and now you can kill all those pesky bats that you have been avoiding. The game taught you basic enemy patterns and now teaches you how to use a gun so by the time you leave first cave you have everything you need to know to go through the game. Everything you learned in first cave will be relevant from here on out and it's not even an arbitrary tutorial. Everything in the game as you progress builds off itself. It doesn't throw in a new arbitrary gimmick every screen. It throws in a gimmick to keep things interesting every area and builds off of that and the things you learn from said gimmick never become irrelevant. This is good level design.

IWBTG is kinda the same in that regard but it doesn't do it quite as well as cave story. It still teaches but also screws you over for humor. IWBTG is a fun little game that is supposed to make you laugh. Once you've seen a trap you can dodge it. I wanna be the guy uses fake difficulty, acknowledges that it's fake and hopes you laugh along with it both understanding that it's the joke. I wanna be the guy tries to be humorous with what it does. I wanna be the Boshy does not. It uses it's traps and other forms of fake difficulty as part of the challenge. IWBTB shows you a room that looks hard and as you play it the game reveals that it is in fact harder than it appears. You get hit by a trap but "guess what that trap is also a gimmick you now have to learn, But first do the whole room again". It's monotonous and tedious. It's not fun for our Average Joe. It's a fun for people who(in no offence) like to be brain dead. You don't play a soccer game without thinking, you have to keep track of everything and always be on your toes. You have to think ahead, figure out where will be a good place to be in a few seconds for your teammate to pass the ball to you if he gets caught by someone else. That's not to say boshy never has good design, it just has significantly more poorly designed rooms.

This is why Boshy is a poorly designed game. In my opinion :)

I'll repeat what I said in the Boshy thread. You can like a badly designed game, you hate a well designed game. Design and your enjoyment are separate entities. Boshy does it's job as game. It entertains people. It entertains a very small group of people sure but if you make a game that entertains at least 1 person you did a good job as a game developer but maybe not as a game designer.

Edit: However if you only entertain one person and work for a video game company then you're fired so don't take what I said to the professional level :P
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 07:40:34 pm by Valkama »
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TheDarkImperialHD

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2014, 02:11:45 am »

I Like this that if you start in Boshy World 1. The Game instantly throw a mess of things at you. Also this Spider is what i like. I mean to scare the player,if it isn't too loud than it's okay. I just laugh my ass off after my heart attack as i meat the Spider first Time and later. I like Boshy cuz there are almost no standard spike Jumps.This every Pixel Movement is Awesome in my Opinion. Every Screen has his Gimmicks. Okay than i also read that this Spike Area in World 8 sux. I enjoyed this Screen cuz after playing Boshy for hours you see a Room with many many Spikes and you just think WTF. For me it was a Awesome Screen. Not like some Fangames that instantly start with many Spikes. I think the Point of I Wanna Be The Guy or Fangames ... is "you play my Game? fuck you with good Ideas"
Alright I will start off by saying this. What is considered to be good level design and bad level design is mostly defined by "what will cause the average Joe to enjoy said design and continue with the game." The main issue with Boshy as a whole is it designed for people who love heavily trial and error games and if you look at a game where the number 1 requirement is to cause trial and error it does it's job perfectly well. However if you take it out of that audience and give it to an average Joe than it will be disliked by most and that is why people will say it's badly designed. The thing is, most people don't like heavy trial and error. It causes(what I like to call) casual game syndrome where you suddenly forget you are playing a game and your fingers are just moving through muscle memory.

What usually makes for a fun game(non pvp games) is when you are given a situation that you can't just force your way through and only when you truly understand the challenge the developer has set out for you can you do it. The problem with boshy is you can understand how you are supposed to do it, you just can't put the inputs in just right. There is a healthy amount of tolerance that needs to be put in place, too much makes a game to easy and too little makes a game too hard. Keep in mind we are referring to the average Joe player.

To start off, what Boshy mainly does that is wrong is you don't have a learning curve. The next room could be the same difficulty as the last, maybe harder, maybe easier and to varying degrees. Boshy may have a variety of spike jumps but a game that is designed well will teach you how to spike jump and then use what you have learned in a non tedious way to let you do a harder jump. Boshy doesn't do this, it gives you a random pattern of spikes and says to jump through it. The main problem with Boshy is it doesn't teach the player how to play. I don't mean through tutorials I mean through the design of the rooms and the learning curve.

I'll use cave story as an example. In the first cave of cave story they start you out with no weapons and no way of fighting. The first thing you see on you right is a closed path that you can't progress through. On your left you see a red spiky thing. The spikes are colored differently for you to recognize them as bad however if you don't you will kindly meet your demise and go back 3 seconds. Now you know never to touch them again. Next you are greeted with simple enemy patterns, if you get hit it's only a bit of damage so you know this is a bad thing. The health up is really bright and flashy so it sticks out as important so you go examine it. After you dodge bats a bit you get to a wall that you thought you could jump up but because your in water you can't, the game teaches you that water reduces your jump height. So you go back and you jump from outside the water and you make it to the first weapon. It is in a chest that is bright so it sticks out. You reenter first cave and now you can kill all those pesky bats that you have been avoiding. The game taught you basic enemy patterns and now teaches you how to use a gun so by the time you leave first cave you have everything you need to know to go through the game. Everything you learned in first cave will be relevant from here on out and it's not even an arbitrary tutorial. Everything in the game as you progress builds off itself. It doesn't throw in a new arbitrary gimmick every screen. It throws in a gimmick to keep things interesting every area and builds off of that and the things you learn from said gimmick never become irrelevant. This is good level design.

IWBTG is kinda the same in that regard but it doesn't do it quite as well as cave story. It still teaches but also screws you over for humor. IWBTG is a fun little game that is supposed to make you laugh. Once you've seen a trap you can dodge it. I wanna be the guy uses fake difficulty, acknowledges that it's fake and hopes you laugh along with it both understanding that it's the joke. I wanna be the guy tries to be humorous with what it does. I wanna be the Boshy does not. It uses it's traps and other forms of fake difficulty as part of the challenge. IWBTB shows you a room that looks hard and as you play it the game reveals that it is in fact harder than it appears. You get hit by a trap but "guess what that trap is also a gimmick you now have to learn, But first do the whole room again". It's monotonous and tedious. It's not fun for our Average Joe. It's a fun for people who(in no offence) like to be brain dead. You don't play a soccer game without thinking, you have to keep track of everything and always be on your toes. You have to think ahead, figure out where will be a good place to be in a few seconds for your teammate to pass the ball to you if he gets caught by someone else. That's not to say boshy never has good design, it just has significantly more poorly designed rooms.

This is why Boshy is a poorly designed game. In my opinion :)

I'll repeat what I said in the Boshy thread. You can like a badly designed game, you hate a well designed game. Design and your enjoyment are separate entities. Boshy does it's job as game. It entertains people. It entertains a very small group of people sure but if you make a game that entertains at least 1 person you did a good job as a game developer but maybe not as a game designer.

Edit: However if you only entertain one person and work for a video game company then you're fired so don't take what I said to the professional level :P

I Like this that if you start in Boshy World 1. The Game instantly throw a mess of things at you. Also this Spider is what i like. I mean to scare the player,if it isn't too loud than it's okay. I just laugh my ass off after my heart attack as i meat the Spider first Time and later. I like Boshy cuz there are almost no standard spike Jumps.This every Pixel Movement is Awesome in my Opinion. Every Screen has his Gimmicks. Okay than i also read that this Spike Area in World 8 sux. I enjoyed this Screen cuz after playing Boshy for hours you see a Room with many many Spikes and you just think WTF. For me it was a Awesome Screen. Not like some Fangames that instantly start with many Spikes. I think the Point of I Wanna Be The Guy or Fangames ... is "you play my Game? fuck you with good Ideas"
Alright I will start off by saying this. What is considered to be good level design and bad level design is mostly defined by "what will cause the average Joe to enjoy said design and continue with the game." The main issue with Boshy as a whole is it designed for people who love heavily trial and error games and if you look at a game where the number 1 requirement is to cause trial and error it does it's job perfectly well. However if you take it out of that audience and give it to an average Joe than it will be disliked by most and that is why people will say it's badly designed. The thing is, most people don't like heavy trial and error. It causes(what I like to call) casual game syndrome where you suddenly forget you are playing a game and your fingers are just moving through muscle memory.

What usually makes for a fun game(non pvp games) is when you are given a situation that you can't just force your way through and only when you truly understand the challenge the developer has set out for you can you do it. The problem with boshy is you can understand how you are supposed to do it, you just can't put the inputs in just right. There is a healthy amount of tolerance that needs to be put in place, too much makes a game to easy and too little makes a game too hard. Keep in mind we are referring to the average Joe player.

To start off, what Boshy mainly does that is wrong is you don't have a learning curve. The next room could be the same difficulty as the last, maybe harder, maybe easier and to varying degrees. Boshy may have a variety of spike jumps but a game that is designed well will teach you how to spike jump and then use what you have learned in a non tedious way to let you do a harder jump. Boshy doesn't do this, it gives you a random pattern of spikes and says to jump through it. The main problem with Boshy is it doesn't teach the player how to play. I don't mean through tutorials I mean through the design of the rooms and the learning curve.

I'll use cave story as an example. In the first cave of cave story they start you out with no weapons and no way of fighting. The first thing you see on you right is a closed path that you can't progress through. On your left you see a red spiky thing. The spikes are colored differently for you to recognize them as bad however if you don't you will kindly meet your demise and go back 3 seconds. Now you know never to touch them again. Next you are greeted with simple enemy patterns, if you get hit it's only a bit of damage so you know this is a bad thing. The health up is really bright and flashy so it sticks out as important so you go examine it. After you dodge bats a bit you get to a wall that you thought you could jump up but because your in water you can't, the game teaches you that water reduces your jump height. So you go back and you jump from outside the water and you make it to the first weapon. It is in a chest that is bright so it sticks out. You reenter first cave and now you can kill all those pesky bats that you have been avoiding. The game taught you basic enemy patterns and now teaches you how to use a gun so by the time you leave first cave you have everything you need to know to go through the game. Everything you learned in first cave will be relevant from here on out and it's not even an arbitrary tutorial. Everything in the game as you progress builds off itself. It doesn't throw in a new arbitrary gimmick every screen. It throws in a gimmick to keep things interesting every area and builds off of that and the things you learn from said gimmick never become irrelevant. This is good level design.

IWBTG is kinda the same in that regard but it doesn't do it quite as well as cave story. It still teaches but also screws you over for humor. IWBTG is a fun little game that is supposed to make you laugh. Once you've seen a trap you can dodge it. I wanna be the guy uses fake difficulty, acknowledges that it's fake and hopes you laugh along with it both understanding that it's the joke. I wanna be the guy tries to be humorous with what it does. I wanna be the Boshy does not. It uses it's traps and other forms of fake difficulty as part of the challenge. IWBTB shows you a room that looks hard and as you play it the game reveals that it is in fact harder than it appears. You get hit by a trap but "guess what that trap is also a gimmick you now have to learn, But first do the whole room again". It's monotonous and tedious. It's not fun for our Average Joe. It's a fun for people who(in no offence) like to be brain dead. You don't play a soccer game without thinking, you have to keep track of everything and always be on your toes. You have to think ahead, figure out where will be a good place to be in a few seconds for your teammate to pass the ball to you if he gets caught by someone else. That's not to say boshy never has good design, it just has significantly more poorly designed rooms.

This is why Boshy is a poorly designed game. In my opinion :)

I'll repeat what I said in the Boshy thread. You can like a badly designed game, you hate a well designed game. Design and your enjoyment are separate entities. Boshy does it's job as game. It entertains people. It entertains a very small group of people sure but if you make a game that entertains at least 1 person you did a good job as a game developer but maybe not as a game designer.

Edit: However if you only entertain one person and work for a video game company then you're fired so don't take what I said to the professional level :P

Yea agreed, so Solgryn's effects didn't hide his Level Design. He need moarzz.

Miracle

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2014, 07:24:11 am »

Look, sugar: the main reason of hatred for Boshy's level design is simply the difficulty--I wanna be the guy was challenging, don't get me wrong, but the difficulty curve was perfect... Which, in my opinion, Boshy lacked.
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Rarest Pepe

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2014, 04:32:24 pm »

So, difficult, but not Kamilla/boshy levels of difficulty...Got it.

But really, Kamilla wasn't designed well. You can really tell when nobody can get past the THIRD LEVEL of bosses
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LOLGAMMER

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2014, 04:33:44 pm »

So, difficult, but not Kamilla/boshy levels of difficulty...Got it.

But really, Kamilla wasn't designed well. You can really tell when nobody can get past the THIRD LEVEL of bosses

I dunno,i found the Kamilia bosses pretty entertaining and interesting.
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Rarest Pepe

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2014, 04:35:01 pm »

So, difficult, but not Kamilla/boshy levels of difficulty...Got it.

But really, Kamilla wasn't designed well. You can really tell when nobody can get past the THIRD LEVEL of bosses

I dunno,i found the Kamilia bosses pretty entertaining and interesting.

Uh, Piano boss?
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infern0man1

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2014, 04:41:48 pm »

So, difficult, but not Kamilla/boshy levels of difficulty...Got it.

But really, Kamilla wasn't designed well. You can really tell when nobody can get past the THIRD LEVEL of bosses

I dunno,i found the Kamilia bosses pretty entertaining and interesting.

Uh, Piano boss?

Worst boss in Kamilia 3. Most of it was trying to get lucky because there is so much RNG in that boss.

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2014, 05:11:19 pm »

With the exception of humourous traps, IWBTG didn't have any fake difficulty. Every room and each boss was difficult in an appropriate way and provided thought provoking challenges.
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Valkema

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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2014, 05:41:54 pm »

With the exception of humourous traps, IWBTG didn't have any fake difficulty. Every room and each boss was difficult in an appropriate way and provided thought provoking challenges.
That's what I mean when I say fake difficulty. The traps aren't bad in IWBTG. They come early and the game plays them for laughs. That's why the traps actually work in IWBTG.
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Re: Boshy Level Design
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2014, 03:03:53 am »

The only "badly" placed trap in IWBTG imo is the grave/bird combo after the spike tunnel. That particular trap falls into the Boshy category of traps of attempting to sucker punch you after you overcame a difficult segment.

Other than that, I agree completely with what you guys have said. Also moving topic to correct board.
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